Nicholas ([info]nhw) wrote,
@ 2006-06-08 08:11:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:livejournal

Boycott analysis
Difficult to be sure, but I reckon sixteen people off my friends list, plus me, participated in the boycott of livejournal on Tuesday. (I also saw comments from roughly the same number of people on my friends list to the effect that they felt livejournal are in the wrong, but were not going to do the boycott thing, and from one or two who felt that livejournal are in the right.)

I won't identify anyone, but I found it very interesting that ten out of those seventeen people are men and seven women (compare the roughly 2:1 ratio the other way of livejournal as a whole, my f-list being much the same); eight are older than me, and eight younger - one born in 1985, the others all in 1973 or before (compare 98% of livejournal users, and 80% of my f-list, claiming to be younger than me); and while I don't know about all of them, I do know that more than half are not parents. Six of the seventeen have free accounts; two are on sponsored; five, including me, on ordinary paid accounts; and four are Permanent users.

More later, perhaps.



(Post a new comment)


[info]feorag
2006-06-08 09:16 am UTC (link)
I didn't do the deletion thing, but I did boycott LJ for 48 hours, not reading, updating or anything like that.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]bopeepsheep
2006-06-08 03:01 pm UTC (link)
Ditto, although it was actually more like 36 hours for me. If I deleted I'd have taken at least three communities with me, thanks to the way maintainership works, and I didn't fancy the headache of sorting them back out afterwards.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]ias
2006-06-08 09:31 am UTC (link)
Guess who couldn't find the original info about when the bycott was and didn't realise until it was halfway through. I would like to blame my scattiness on pregnancy brain and the heat.

I only realised it had started when another person on my f-list complained about it and stated that everyone doing it was a Boob Nazi, so I waded in to the debate instead and have been debating whether it is Boob Nazism to point out regularly that 'breast is best' and there are no valid reasons for the majority of women not to try breastfeeding to begin with (apparently it is and I am thus calling all formula feeders bad mothers which is oppressing them, bad me).

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]ias
2006-06-08 09:32 am UTC (link)
I would also like to blame my inability to puncuate or spell properly on the heat ;)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]daveon
2006-06-08 09:34 am UTC (link)
Part of the problem, having read a few journals now, is the ongoing flamewar between the Childfree and the "Breeders". Both sides seemed happy to pour oil over troubled waters and then set fire to it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]nhw
2006-06-08 09:49 am UTC (link)
I don't think that is an completely accurate characterisation of the debate. The majority of those who I noticed as having deleted on Tuesday are in fact literally "childfree" rather than "breeders". No doubt the flamewars on the relavant communities have indeed been fast and furious, but for me the issue is freedom of speech and what sort of "community" livejournal is (as indeed you mention below).

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ias
2006-06-08 11:46 am UTC (link)
I also tried to point out to some people who were calling all boycotters Boob Nazis that at least two boycotter, who I know personally, were childfree and happily so and were more concerned with freedom of speach and due process, especially the changing of rules after the event.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]counslr_tragedy
2006-06-13 08:43 am UTC (link)
From a personal though fairly uninvolved point of view, I felt most troubled by the freedom of expression issues in terms of two catagories - one is "slippery slope", the other is "double (and gender-related) standard" - not just in terms of the bodies on display, but the slack LJ gave to those who had not joined the protest when they trolled others' journals; [info]yonmei's journal was suspended LJ crew should still have also been busy dealing with the troll behavior and abuse to which she'd been subjected.

I couldn't really speak to the due process or the after-fact altering (or "clarification" as it was called in some quarters) of the FAQ, because I didn't follow things that closely. What I heard though, was already pretty disturbing, and there wasn't much reassurance coming from official sources.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]redfiona99
2006-06-08 02:03 pm UTC (link)
I have to admit that the way more extreme members of the pro-breastfeeding lobby do call those mothers that don't breastfeed bad mothers, which they might not necessarily be, was one of the reasons I didn't join in the boycott.

I have nothing against breasts or breastfeeding, or telling people that breast is best because it is, but I think the 6Apart's stance was more to do with nudity on default icons than anything else, they didn't have a problem with non-default icons showing breastfeeding, so I don't see why people were complaining because it doesn't take a lot of effort to change from one's default icon to a non-default icon.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]raycun
2006-06-08 08:39 pm UTC (link)
Equally, what's the point in only forcing changes to default icons?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Goodness knows
[info]redfiona99
2006-06-09 12:10 pm UTC (link)
I think it's because those can be seen by people who aren't logged in, and SixApart or whoever were worried about minors seeing them. My response that most art involves far more nudity normally results in me getting funny looks but then again I do think that this whole idea is madness.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]daveon
2006-06-08 09:32 am UTC (link)
I felt the following:

1. I'm not sure that 6 Apart/LJ were 100% incorrect on this subject. I certainly take onoard comments that default pictures can cause problems for people, particuarly at work. However...

2. This was a flame war between rvial factions including at least one person on FL who has, in the past, been part of a few flame wars which have irked many. Too many people got too emotional, especially now I've read both the B00bnazi and Chrildfree communities on the subject.

In general, Six Apart, as a commercial company, need to start acting like one and stop pretending they're a happy go lucky friendly co-operative. That might have worked when they had a deliberately restrictive entry policy i.e. needing a member to recommend you; it will not work now.

I suspect they don't even have the cabilities to react to the protest.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]nhw
2006-06-08 09:54 am UTC (link)
I think I know who you mean, and yes, that person's involvement did give me pause for thought; but I went ahead with the protest anyway. I am entirely prepared for SixApart to come up with a response which satisfies me but leaves the hardliners yelling that it isn't enough. If they had any sense, they would be looking for such a solution. But I fear that your suspicion that they don't have the capabilities to react to the protest is more likely to be borne out.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]counslr_tragedy
2006-06-13 08:59 am UTC (link)
I am entirely prepared for SixApart to come up with a response which satisfies me but leaves the hardliners yelling that it isn't enough.

Sorry I'm coming late to this party - hope you don't mind my little additions at this late date. I pretty much could agree with you on this: the beginning of the conflict struck me with their willingness to censor icons first on the basis of troll activity, but later by generalized invocations of "inappropriateness" (yeesh! talk about a squishy word!) and the need to "protect" minors... my own view is informed by how I've reacted to seeing babies (and even in a couple instances toddlers) being breastfed; I was not entirely comfortable, but my resolution is, however I was reacting, it was up to me to own those reactions and not make them someone else's responsibility. So, no thank you, LJ, don't go around "protecting" people; I wished they'd stood their ground against the foot-in-the-door of the censor. It's stuff like this that will make them vulnerable to suits in the future, that's my own intuition.

The reaction icon I found the most amusing was the invitation, if the flash of breast made one feel uncomfortable, was to put a blanket over one's own head. Which I do metaphorically by reminding myself that feeding a child is a necessary thing, and that my reactions are not entirely natural, having been schooled as I have been by anti-body/anti-women forces in society...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]flemmarde
2006-06-08 09:37 am UTC (link)
I read a lot about it... alerted by your post announcing your upcoming boycott. i found the discussion and debate interesting, but i chose not to participate at all, despite being a mother who breastfed, and who believes very strongly in breastfeeding. but your analysis post has inspired me to reflect on why i didn't do more.

on balance i agree with and support the measured and thoughtful arguments put forward by people who talked about how important it is to desensitise people to the sight of women feeding their babies in public. but i was also uncomfortable about some of the poor behaviour and borderline hysterical reactions that seemed to emerge from both sides. of course that doesn't count for the majority, and i read lots of really well thought out and erudite arguments. i just don't like to jump on bandwagons and i've seen some incredibly vitriolic debates get out of hand on lj.

and maybe i don't identify so strongly with the more reactionary attitudes towards breastfeeding mothers in the states, as even 23 years ago, i rarely had any problems feeding my son wherever in australia. not that it's all completely open and accepting there, but i personally found it to not be a big issue. and not that i believe if i didn't have a problem then it's not a problem, i just feel a lot of it is america's problem and it's part of a bigger problem they have. so perhaps it's my anti-imperialist reactionary tendencies, but i am probably particularly averse to jumping on the bandwagon on issues that seem to me to be centred in the states and concerning their own internal politics and issues. it's like that email that constantly does the rounds about how if you click on the breast cancer site, women will get free mamograms, but no one mentions that it's in the states, and i had to point out to my friends in aus that women could already get free mamograms there.

and i'm averse to worrying too much about lj politics. i like to use lj, but i find it hard to get steamed up about its internal workings. that's probably terribly lazy and unhelpful of me, and one day something will come up that affects me personally, but until then...

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]daveon
2006-06-08 09:50 am UTC (link)
i rarely had any problems feeding my son wherever in australia.

Interesting comment.

It's hardly common, I suppose, OTOH, it's not all that rare and frankly I can't think of an occasion where I've seen it and it has caused any problem.

Although when I worked in recruitment in a largely female environment (I was the bloke out of 14 women) most of those with kids used to express their milk because it was more convenient for them. I'm not sure if the argument is that the act of breastfeeding is better or if it is much better to use breast milk regardless of the source.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]flemmarde
2006-06-08 11:29 am UTC (link)
well all things being equal and easy, the act of breastfeeding is the best thing because not only is breastmilk specifically designed for human babies, the experience for both mother and baby of physically feeding, skin to skin, is a wonderful developmental tool emotionally - for both parties involved. but all things are rarely equal and people have to make compromises and sacrifices and do the best they can, and as a wise theorist once said... aim to be a "good enough" mother. so i don't get off on all the arguing and accusing and blaming etc over these topics. I've been a working mother with a small infant because i had no choice and chose to anyway, and a stay at home and then part time working mother with the next one and it was hard, but i chose that. and both my kids are healthy and wonderful and wierd people and i did the best i could, struggling like crazy to build up an adequate supply so i could breastfeed them both for 18 months (not exclusively of course by that stage).

but then again, i was never breastfed, not even once, and i *think* i survived the trauma :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]flemmarde
2006-06-08 11:32 am UTC (link)
heh heh... for someone who had nothing to say onthe subject, i actually have a bit to say...

I meant to add that i hated expressing. it was uncomfortable, time consuming and difficult as i didn't make enough milk in the first place. and at work there were no facilities to store it, so i had to sit on the toilets at lunch, express and then tip it down the toilet, just to keep my supply up. but perhaps technology has improved in the last 20 years...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ias
2006-06-08 11:49 am UTC (link)
Legally (in the UK), employers have to provide time and space for mothers who wish to express their milk (not too sure about the fridges but there are better cool bags available owadays)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]flemmarde
2006-06-08 11:55 am UTC (link)
yes... i should have said that i'm sure both technology *and* workplace facilities / rules have improved since 1984!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]bohemiancoast
2006-06-08 10:58 pm UTC (link)
If you're working and still breastfeeding during the day then you don't have much option other than expressing (with both my babies I dropped daytime feeds when I returned to work). And I know one or two people who found expressing convenient; but that's pretty unusual. Most people find it a considerable trial, but the benefits either to the baby in terms of getting only breast milk, or to the mum in terms of being able to get away from the baby once in a while make it worth doing.

Where you get people saying 'using my limited spare time to pump my milk into a bottle, freezing it, then carrying it around in a chillbag with me and the baby, and then finding somewhere to warm it up to feed the baby, and then washing everything, is more convenient than breastfeeding in public' -- and some women do say this -- you have the heart of the issue around acceptance of public breastfeeding.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]thette
2006-06-08 12:27 pm UTC (link)
I've been saying that I've been too busy breastfeeding to take part in this discussion. I've followed it, though, but like you I think it's not my problem. After all, 98% of Swedish children are breastfed, and the only problem I've had with breastfeeding in public is the cold weather.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]flemmarde
2006-06-08 04:17 pm UTC (link)
oooh, i can imagine!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]bohemiancoast
2006-06-08 10:58 pm UTC (link)
At least cold weather helps the nipples stick out...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]raycun
2006-06-08 09:38 am UTC (link)
I would have deleted my journal (not that anyone would have noticed) but I forgot until half-way through the day, and then couldn't see how to do the deletion.

LJ have handled this really badly from start to finish - the decision, the implementation of the decision, their response to criticism, have all been bad.

(Reply to this)


[info]mizkit
2006-06-08 11:24 am UTC (link)
I also noticed that the two people on my flist who participated were men. I thought that was interesting, myself. :)

(Reply to this)


[info]greengolux
2006-06-08 11:39 am UTC (link)
I didn't delete because I didn't think it was an effective way to protest (I have reservations in general about effectiveness of protests that are delilberately self-silencing). I did find myself contemplating shelling out the couple quid/dollars for a bit of paid time, (as I occasionally do when I want to make a poll,) the other day, and found myself feeling distinctly unwilling to give my money to a business with such poor customer service. Mind you, I also have reservations about the effectiveness of boycotts as a form of protest, so I think I didn't buy the paid time partly out of apathy about polling, and partly out of general ornery disgruntledness at LJ/Six Apart for their recent behaviour.

(Reply to this)


[info]vasco_pyjama
2006-06-08 02:33 pm UTC (link)
Ah... that answers my question about why you deleted. Hmmmm... I didn't know there was a boycott. *head hang*.

(Reply to this)


[info]leedy
2006-06-08 02:43 pm UTC (link)
I didn't delete, but stayed off LJ for the specified 24 hours (partly, it has to be said, due to a horrible cold, but I had planned on boycotting anyway). LJ have handled the whole thing dreadfully, I think.

(Reply to this)


[info]applez
2006-06-08 03:39 pm UTC (link)
I did not in fact visit the 6Apart offices located not far from my office, but then, I didn't vote in the recent Primary Election either. Yay disengagement! :-/

(Reply to this)


Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…